It was on July 26, 2022, on a morning in Dakar, that I had a long talk with Hamady Bocoum (Fig 1), general director of the Museum of Black Civilizations (Fig. 2): He received me quietly, while I observed how the furniture was organized in his office—but mainly looked at the work by Abdoulaye Konaté, in blue tones, that hung on the wall (Fig. 3).During the interview, Bocoum revealed the objectives, ideas, vision, and outlook that underlay the foundation of a museum that intends to create a new paradigm: He defends rebellion creativity and states that they do not follow the pattern of any previously established museum. He also claims a native outlook for a contemporary Africa that is more creative in the historical and cultural world.Adriano Mixinge [A.M.]: Next December 6 [2022], the Museum will be four years old. Do you think this institution has fulfilled its objectives—that is to say, those which fostered its creation?Hamady Bocoum [H.B.]: I think they were fulfilled in a satisfactory manner. That is, when we started working on the idea of this museum, we stated that it was necessary to have a certain vision. It was also important to have in mind the results of what was had already been done in African museums and we discovered, grosso modo, that we were much more worried about ethnology.And Africans don't care about that, so they basically didn't go [to the museums]. Those who went to museums were foreigners, tourists, or the petit bourgeoisie—ourselves, the intellectuals. Ordinary people didn't visit these places, because ethnology is a discourse about the other: it is the way Europeans looked at us, on the one hand, and the objects that were [in the museums] were what Europeans thought was important for them, not for us, on the other hand. It was a sort of voyeurism and colonial exoticism. As a result, we decided: We are not going to do the same, that is to say, to have a museum of ethnology.The other kind of museum that we had was anthropological, that is, about the evolution of humankind that led to a sort of racism; we are going to talk about that later. We said to ourselves that anthropology has harmed Africa too much, even trying to justify slavery; also what many revealed religions, in particular, have done: they do not look at us as human beings. It justified regarding us as goods, even if they thought we were human goods.Therefore we decided: We are not going to have an anthropological museum. In this way, we are faithful to what Alpha Omar Konaré, the former president of Mali and also president of the International Council of Museum (ICOM), said, “It was necessary to kill [destroy] the European pattern of museum in Africa.”A.M: Mister Bocoum, don't you think it is risky, in the twenty-first century, to create a museum that deals directly with race, a concept that carries a lot of colonial power? Or, changing the question: What justifies or is behind, truly speaking, the idea and the concept of “Black civilizations”?H.B: We are not in a chromatic museum. This is not a black museum: It is a museum of Black civilizations in the contemporary world. It is important because even colonization, when you read the documents of the Berlin Conference that dealt with the division of Africa by the Western powers at the time [1884–1885], you will find that they state that they brought civilization [to Africa] because the Blacks were not civilized.But, if we keep this perspective—above all, even if we speak about human anthropology—the cradle of humanity, of our humanity is Africa. And when you visit our exhibition on Africa, the Cradle of Humanity, the last sequence is a big mirror where each visitor sees themself and we tell them: “You are also Homo sapiens; we are all Homo sapiens.” Or better, I repeat, the Museum of Black Civilizations is not a black museum; it is not a chromatic museum, it is a Museum of Black Civilizations in the contemporary world. What is important is: It is useless, above all, to place a veil on the eyes.As far as anthropology is concerned, there are no races. Biologically speaking, a Black, a White, and a Yellow [person] are all the same; we are all Homo sapiens. Nevertheless, as far as culture is concerned, racism exists: It is deeply entrenched.Here in the museum, we let ourselves, or, to talk about something else, to introduce the case of George Floyd, who was brutally killed because he was Black […]—it's the same idea that allows us to introduce Louis Hamilton, who fights for these causes and, above all, he is the only Black in Formula 1 [motor racing].Racism exists in the cultural sphere; biologically speaking, it doesn't exist. We would be closing our eyes if we didn't denounce this kind of thing; it would mean succumbing to other people's desires if we regarded racism as something of the past, i.e., that is not dealt with. This isn't true; it isn't right. Racism exists within European civilizations, around the world, including in Arabic-speaking countries.As far as Blacks are concerned: We exist and work for the continual building of humanity, which is the reason why this museum exists. Africa is extraordinary, the cradle of humanity, and we think it's something we must not forget: Africa is the continent that was able to deal with the other without any problems, and because it's very important it must be taken into account.From the very beginning—that is to say, as the world exists— Africa and Africans are the ones who demonstrated the capacity to accept the other without any problem. They were able to interact with other civilizations quietly. Today we speak European languages; we have learned their culture. Nevertheless, they do not know our languages, and as far as that's concerned, we are better off. In our case, we share; we talk: This is the reason why the museum exists.A.M: About this aspect, would you like to add anything else that you regard as important?H.B: Yes! The last thing I would like to emphasize is that the museum's motto is rebellion: rebellion is not revolt. Revolt is refusal. Rebellion is a choice, it's a mature reaction, and that is to say, the Museum of Black Civilizations does not have any pattern.We do not want to be like any other museum in the world. Nevertheless, we are open to learn with other museums: each institution can teach us anything, a lesson that we are going to try to learn as fully as possible. Anyway, we don't want to be like anyone else: we want to be ourselves! Sometimes we can play a good role and we can also make mistakes, which is not that grave. As it is said, we learn from our mistakes.A.M: As we know, the Museum of Black Civilizations is the result of Leopold Sedar Senghor's dream expressed in the first Festival of Black Arts in 1966. However, its structure and the concept underlying its creation seems to be more related to the ideas defended by Cheik Anta Diop, mainly the essence and the place of the Black people in the history of the continent and the world. Would you like to comment?H.B: Frankly speaking, I have no problems on this issue. It is important to remember that Senghor contributed, [but] he was not the only one, that is, everyone in Africa and even the diaspora wanted to organize that festival, after the Rome Meeting, in 1959, when the decision was made. It was recognized that Cheik Anta Diop worked hard as far as the promotion of Black civilization was concerned, at the time of Senghor.Then, between Senghor and Diop there is no cultural problem. There are different viewpoints, maybe—not maybe, it is a fact, fundamental in the political sphere. Diop always defended the maintenance of cultural continuity in Africa and the question of federalism; he never abandoned it, or rather, it meant a radical separation from the West—mainly with France, to be more direct and objective.I do not know whether, in the political sphere, there is a radical position, but there is none on the intellectual side, because if you observe the first project of our museum, proposed by Senghor, had this side of Africa, that is, as the cradle of humanity. It was clearly written. And Senghor said, in 1967, during the Pan-African Congress of Prehistory: “We are Homo sapiens: master of our audacity and our land,” and it summarizes, to a certain extent, Diop's vision and thoughts.I think as far as culture is concerned there aren't any conflicts. However the same cannot be said in terms of politics— that is, there are a lot of differences. Yes, there are truly different visions. Related to Black civilizations, I think, they almost have the same ideas.A.M: When the question of restitution of objects, articles, and works of African art that are still in European institutions is at the center of all discussions, the fact is that, according to the media, the Museum of Black Civilizations has in its possession 18,000 objects that have to be properly dealt with, studied, and spread. What strategies or policy of heritage management do you have that are different from everyday practices that will allow your institution to participate actively in this discussion through examples?H.B: Well, that is okay. Nowadays we speak too much about restitution and some newspapers and radio—that is, you spoke about the media, and I will say more about it—we said, sometimes, 80% of [all] African heritage is held in Europe. It is not true! It is totally wrong; perhaps 80% of sub-Saharan African [heritage] is in Europe.I want to be even more precise: Maybe 80% of what the Europeans decided to take with them, [which] they did during colonial times. But if we take into account that Africa, the “cradle of humanity,” has a history of at least 6.5 million years, from Toumai—a reference to the discovery of the skull of the same name in Chad, that paleoanthropologists regard as the oldest evidence of the human species until now (Fig. 4). Then, what does “colonial times” mean?AM: Nothing!H.B: You have already answered: nothing! It is a parenthesis and that is it! It had a tremendous impact, but as far as time is concerned, it is not meaningful. What we did during colonial times—was it in vain? We think as though Africa exists only to be colonized; we think too much about it. However, we [at the museum] do not recognize it.Then, we do not spend our time talking about the articles and objects that are, say, kept in Europe. Of course they are important and we must have them back—we have just started. However, what the media say is not right: We do not have 18,000 articles in our institution. We are able to maintain in our museum probably 100 articles and our depository is full.Of course, we aren't doing anything to have our depository full with what the Europeans will vacate from their stock. We'll take what we think is important according to our objectives. Truly speaking, we are not going to spend all our time fighting for restitution.It is important that Africa takes its place. Many people say that this century belongs to Africa. If that is true, Africa must impose its speech, including the cultural one.It is important to have in mind the contemporary aspect; it is also useful to remind ourselves of the contemporaneity of Africa, its creative side. It is not a good idea to look back all the time. Of course, it's important to look back so that we have an idea of what happened before, but once again, we must look forward. We need to face them, we need to overtake them, but not with emotions, feelings, but with actions, our spirit, our vision and life style.A.M: Mister Hamady, as the museum is a pan-Africanist institution, what do you think of the idea of having specialists from other countries, more than from Senegal? Don't you think it would contribute to consolidate the interdisciplinary research that is at the base of the glorification of arts, culture, and the political agenda that people get in touch with? Don't you think it's a good idea to have a joint management that includes other institutions and countries? Can't this possibility be studied?H.B: Well, there are many important questions. When we have a pan-Africanist vision, it is also useful to have a pan-Africanist way of ruling or governing at a certain point. It is one of our objectives, but we haven't reached it yet. Anyway, we will attain it. It was first important to create the institution here in Senegal: it is legally speaking Senegalese. It is true: the general director is from Senegal.We have tried, above all, to create catwalks to have African governance, both scientific and intellectual. What I have to say about the first item and the conference of prefiguration, we had a meeting in 2016 with more than 147 experts. We had people from all over the world—of course, including White Europeans— we just gathered those who had something to say about Africa. The result of this conference, a document, is the DNA, the core, of our institution.A.M: Can this document be seen? Where?H.B: Yes, of course. You can find it in our site [mcn.sn].A.M: That is okay.H.B: We are going to try to improve this document, because it has a lot of elements that can still be changed—this is the core of our institution and it was not designed by Senegalese people.The second thing we had to do when we organized exhibitions was to create a board of curators. For example, if we talk about the exhibitions that you have visited, you could see that the platform Africa, the Cradle of Humanity was designed by George Abongo, from Kenya, one of our experts.About this side, we will deal with it later on, at the end, that is, we called it The Globalization of Negritude, but we did not fulfil our objective, that is to say, we did not get the desired results. But this reflection was undertaken by Laurella Yssap-Rinçom, at the time director of Memorial Acte in Guadeloupe. She reflected for all of us in diaspora.The Saga of the Baobab, this sculpture that is at the center of the room, is by Edouard Duval Carrié (Fig. 9): It was designed by a Haitian and we decided to place it at the center of this museum. This baobab tree is the only piece that will never be moved. It was made from iron cut because there are a lot of techniques that the slaves took with them. After working the iron, they gather pieces of it to make works of art. Duval Carrié utilizes this technique to make big trees that were taken into pieces and constructed here.That is the way we try to do things here: we have been working to have status in the African Union and UNESCO and I think that as time goes on we will find other solutions. But at this time, for the museum to be open and as far as money is concerned, without putting aside the organization of the exhibitions, Senegal pays for everything, a situation that allows me to say proudly that we are our own boss: We do not depend on any project to exist.Nevertheless, it does not mean that we do not have or want other projects: recently we had a big project with the French, our friends, with the Pablo Picasso National Museum in Paris and with the Museé du quai Branly. We have also worked with the George Pompidou Center—we developed partnership. We will organize within some time an exhibition in cooperation with Tervuren, a project on Bantu people.That is the way we're working. We're going to have take into account the core articles of our institution and, who knows, maybe Senegal can cede some of its sovereignty as far as the museum management is concerned. It is our decision. We will do it without any problems: we are open to work with people all over the world.